The great animal debate continues. The online dating stats say that men who have cats in their profiles get fewer messages, but men who have dogs get more. Then there are the people who say men ARE dogs. But I wouldn’t insult dogs like that… heyooo! Just poking fun, we love men and dogs. But most of all, we love looking at what humans and animals can learn from one another.
If you and me ain’t nothin but mammals, is there anything we could learn about love from looking at other animals?
That is precisely the question at the core of the new Discovery+ series, Love in the Jungle. Today Animal behavior specialist and show consultant, Dr. Jennifer Verdolin, will school us on love lessons from the animal kingdom. She’ll tell us why we should trade romantic images of swans for vultures, the real reason that red works in your dating profiles, and so much more.
DATING DISH (2:42)
What to do if a “nice-guy” turns out to be not so nice:
If you think you know what a nice guy is, Reddit has got another thing coming for ya. According to this Newsweek article and Reddit forums, “nice guy” is now a phrase referring to a man who believes acting nice or moral entitles him to sex, romance and affection. This is not a new phenomenon, especially because the article notes how the anonymity of social media allows feelings of rage to come to the surface and be expressed more easily.
You may actually recognize the usual pattern of a Nice Guy, which is as follows: When you first start talking, they’re perfectly nice and give you lots of compliments. Soon after, they make an advance. If or when you decline, they immediately turn on you. They begin name calling, acting dismissive, and saying things like “I didn’t think that you were pretty anyway.”
So here are the clear traits you can look out for in a potential “nice guy.”
- When you meet them, they may act in passive aggressive ways.
- In person, they may be much more withdrawn or express their frustration in a different way.
- They don’t really have emotional intelligence, the ability to express or manage their emotions in an effective manner.
- They don’t accept help or support, or even want to address their emotional challenges.
- They use love bombing to disarm their targets.
- Big changes in emotion, like quickly becoming angry or insulting.
If you end up finding a “nice guy” out in the wild, what should you do? According to this article, they are probably not in the position to really think about their behavior reasonably, so stay polite as you exit. If you become rude with them, they’ll see that they’ve gained emotional control over you, and it may just make them even worse. Also, don’t try to educate them. And most importantly, don’t be afraid to block and report this person for abusive behavior. Damona notes that all dating and social media apps take online abuse very seriously, particularly if people are violating the terms of the app. So don’t be afraid to let the app know that we don’t accept “nice guy” behavior.
Damona takes a moment to talk to the ACTUAL nice guys, and talk about a strategy she developed called the Nice Guy Nine. Since the nice guy is often overlooked (and because she ended up marrying her own nice guy), Damona ended up creating techniques to help these men attract the women they want.
Below are some of the tips from the Nice Guy Nine.
- Get her talking about the things that she loves when you are on your date – maybe her dog or a favorite activity. Talking about these things will bring up positive feelings, she will then associate those positive feelings with you.
- Give her unique compliments. If it’s obvious that she’s gorgeous, she probably has guys complimenting her looks all the time. Go a level deeper. Can you give her a compliment on something that she’s wearing? Or do you notice something unusual about her? Maybe she’s reading a particular book you can comment on? Also, consider complimenting her on a quality that reveals something about what you’re looking for.
- You want good eye contact, but not creepy eye contact. So it’s not staring, but it’s glancing and looking away. A lot of times, actual nice guys tend to avoid eye contact because it feels awkward. But try holding the gaze a little bit longer than you think is comfortable. Usually it’s at that point that the eye contact becomes intriguing.
- Just tell her you like her. We’re all playing it so cool that nobody’s really saying what they want.
- All in all, be open hearted and you’ll be amazed at what meets you back.
Are you an actual nice guy who needs a little help getting any matches? Damona’s FREE Profile Starter Kit will help you completely revolutionize your online dating experience, switch up your profile, and magnetize the dates to you. It’s not going to be free forever, so download yours HERE!
JENNIFER VERDOLIN (13:15)
Dr. Jennifer Verdolin is an internationally known animal behavior scientist, podcast host, and author of “Wild Connection: What animal courtship and mating tells us about human relationships”.
She is also an Associate Professor in the School of Natural Resources and the Environment at the University of Arizona
(14:01) Dr. Verdolin’s background:
How does one find a career at the intersection of animal behavioralist and dating show consultant? Dr. Verdolin states that she’s always been able to see the parallels between humans and other species (whether it be a dragonfly or a cardinal). “I study wild animals and all the things that go into their social lives and their love lives… And then there was my own dating life. And I found myself, after I got my PhD and I was single again, going, ‘Okay, why is it that a chicken can make a better choice in a partner than I can?’” So Dr. Verdolin set out on a mission to date like other species, using some of their principles to guide her to a mate, rather than being guided by romantic comedies.
(16:20) Love in the Jungle:
Damona calls Dr. Verdolin’s new Discovery+ show, Love in the Jungle, a mix between Survivor, F**kboy Island and Married at First Sight. Basically, 14 unlucky-in-love singles are thrown into the jungle to mix & mingle and compete in challenges reminiscent of different mating rituals – all while being unable to speak. “We use words so much. We manipulate each other with words and we present an image to each other with our words. And sometimes, you know, we don’t pay attention to other things, because we’re so caught up in the wonderful words. So by taking that away, you’re left with observing how somebody interacts with others. You are left with noticing their body language, you’re left with how creative they can be with what they’re trying to communicate to you. They have to find other ways to show you.”
Dr. Verdolin describes that one of the things that surprised her the most while filming was how much the contestants embraced the philosophy of the show. She addresses one of the challenges on the show, where the women had to cover themselves with pink feathers and dance like a flamingo. “You know, you’re doing [these challenges] in front of potential mates, which is not something we typically have to do. We always make ourselves very comfortable, we dress the way we feel the best, we go places that we feel comfortable with, to activities that we’re confident in. And it’s really unsettling to be vulnerable in that way, super vulnerable.”
(20:08) Define ‘high-quality’:
A time-old concept that has pervaded both our culture and the animal kingdom, is the idea of the Alpha Male. Damona inquires if the Alpha Male mentality is one that we should be looking for or even need anymore?
Take the aforementioned bird, the Cardinal. If you are a male Cardinal, you are judged by female Cardinals on how red you are (and unfortunately, there isn’t a red spray tan salon for cardinals). “But here’s the thing, why do female Cardinals care so much about how red the males are? Well, because they become red through their diet. And so that red is a signal of, ‘I’m a good male. I can find food, I’m going to be a good father, I can provide while you are in the nest.’”
This is what Dr. Verdolin refers to as an honest signal, referring to a visual trait that is hard to cheat. And those honest signals don’t have to be about strength or size. They can be intelligence, they can be sociability, they can be all kinds of traits.
Honest signals work into the the Alpha male/female dynamic, in that they inspire competition. “What we see in humans and other species is intense male-male competition, intense female-female competition, right? Or however you want to mix it up, it doesn’t really matter. There’s always going to be competition for high quality mates, depending on whatever we decide is high quality.”
(20:48) Seeing red:
One of Damona’s classic pieces of advice (that you may have caught on the show before) is to include the color red in your dating profile pictures, since it inspires such a strong biological and emotional connection.
Dr. Verdolin brings up the power of red in an example involving Zebra Finch. For a long time, people who studied birds put different colored bands on their legs to be able to tell them apart. Turns out in this instance, males that got red bands were apparently seen as super sexy to the females. (Female Zebra finches tend to love novel traits). So for some reason, the males that got green bands lost fights with males that had red bands, and females didn’t like them as much.
“We are attuned to different factors, and the thing that I like to bring people’s attention to… is to notice this, pay attention to this. Because you might be drawn to somebody based on that [unique or specific quality]. But that doesn’t make that individual the right partner for you.”
(26:36) Love at first smell:
Let’s talk about the pheromone in the room… how much does smell really play into human attraction, according to Dr. Verdolin? Plainly, she says a huge amount. “I think that we do a disservice to each other by covering our smell… There was actually an experiment done, I don’t remember where it was. But it was basically a speed dating experiment using armpit swabs. You basically went around sniffing jars, and you wrote down what jar or jars you were strongly attracted to. And then if there was a match, you got time with that individual.”
Mate-wise, we get a lot of the information about potential partners from smell. Particularly through something called MHC genes, or major histocompatibility genes, which are our immune function genes. Dr. Verdolin adds, “We are most attracted to individuals that are opposite to us. And why would we be most interested in individuals that have sort of an opposite set of genes? Well, you combine two different sets of immune genes, and you have babies that really have the best of both of their parents when it comes to immune genes.” (AKA, genetic diversity.)
Dr. Verdolin also drops the fact that when women are on birth control, the medication changes their smell preferences. They tend to end up feeling attracted to individuals that are MOST similar to their MHC genes, which can sometimes become a problem when they get off birth control, because they may not be able to stand the smell of their partner.
But with all these natural pheromones floating around, does using scented deodorant or perfume mess up our scent-ses? (See what I did there?) Dr. Versolin thinks so. “Of course, one should have good hygiene. We’re not talking about not bathing for a week so that you’re ripe by the time you go on your date. That’s not what we’re talking about… I feel like there was this push to have us be embarrassed about our smells. And you know, I say bring it back! But again, this is just a piece of information on your genetic compatibility, your sexual compatibility, your kind of attraction compatibility. And that can be great for one night or for, you know, 50 years.”
(34:19) Monogamy or nah:
Similarly to other species, Dr. Verdolin states that we can also be attracted to multiple people at once. Which begs the biological question, are we meant to be monogamous? Dr. Verdolin has seen that in any species, there is variation among the individuals (for example, there are currently over 50 human societies where women have two husbands).
Dr. Verdolin brings up the Bewick’s Swan. “You have some infidelity in some partners, right? So some partners are super faithful, and other partners are not so much. And even like one-sixth, or one-third of the little cygnets, which is what baby swans are called, are not related to the male. It’s the females that usually step out! And so we call that socially monogamous, but not genetically monogamous.” (Hot tip: this Valentine’s Day, try giving your partner a card with Black Vultures on it, who Dr. V says are SUPER monogamous.)
And then there’s the Prairie Dogs, where females mate with on average two plus males. “I study prairie dogs and, you know, I’d see them traipsing all over the place. And I’m like, oh, it was thought it was the males that were doing all of the philandering. And it turned out it was the females that were going out and visiting other males.”
We tend to have these stories about what our relationships are supposed to look like, and that they’re supposed to look that way for everybody. But we’ve changed so much culturally in the past decade and at a really rapid pace. And some people just aren’t as monogamous as other people. Dr. Verdolin’s hot take is that “the problem comes in when we don’t have a society that permits people to say, ‘You know what, I struggle with monogamy.”
(43:53) Tap into your animal intuition:
Intuition plays such a big role in how we suss out people in our own dating lives, so Damona asks Dr. V how intuition shows up for different species. Like, do they have a special spidey sense (maybe literally) for picking up red flags?
Dr. Verdolin returns back to the Cardinal to answer D’s question. “Remember when we started out with the cardinal, right? There’s no female that’s like, ‘Okay, I mean, he has potential to be better. I think if I just work with him, and I show him where the berries are, you know, he’ll become more motivated. He will be more of an ambitious Cardinal.’ We know in our gut, when we have that feeling, we know what feels good and we know what feels bad.”
“But we also have sort of been told that relationships are hard work, right? That everything is hard. And we also have storylines that tell us we will get this wonderful feeling when we first meet somebody, but then they don’t treat us as well as they should. And then we go through all this pain, we break up and then they come back and they’ve had an epiphany about us and they’ve come back to be with us.”
Unlike other species, Dr. V believes that all of this mixed messaging has messed with the way we listen to our intuition… For most species, not listening to their intuition will always have more immediate consequences than when humans ignore their intuition. So let’s take a lesson from Dr. V and the Cardinals and trust our gut more. Because in the end, we lose less time on situations that aren’t right for us, and we will therefore be able to stay positive.
Be sure to follow Dr. Jen on Instagram and Twitter @RealDrJen.
And check out her website for links to her podcast, Wild Connection, and her book, “Wild Connection: What Animal Courtship and Mating Tells Us about Human Relationships.” Check out JenniferVerdolin.com.
DEAR DAMONA (54:06)
Submit your questions on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook and hear our answers live on the show! Here’s what our listeners asked about this week:
- IG Message from Wanda – Hi Damona! I love your podcast and all of your fantastic advice. I DM’ed you a couple of weeks ago about not knowing where to start in the world of online dating, after the end of my 25 year marriage and 9 year permanent separation. Your suggestion was to start out with writing a profile which I did, then I took it one step further and signed up for OK Cupid and Silver Singles since I’m in my 50s. After I downloaded some recent photos and created my profile, my inbox became flooded with messages from local men (and a couple were even patients from the hospital I work at). Well let’s just say the apps became quite overwhelming! I think because I work as a Nurse Manager in the ER at the only hospital in this city, I may have to figure out how to go on dating sites more incognito. I’d appreciate any advice on navigating this, thank you Damona!
DAMONA’S DEALS
The 4 Factors & Meeting Your Match
Once upon a time, Damona held a special online summit with some of the top love experts in the world that was just for VIPs and subscribers. For over five years, these conversations have been locked away. But today, we’re sharing a very special interview with the amazing matchmaker Paul Carrick Brunson.
We don’t have to tell you that finding a match can be difficult. A lot of pieces have to come together: Are you physically attracted to each other? Do you share goals and values? Do you feel heard? Understood?
But what if we told you that these things were actually the second step in the dating process? (Say whaaat?!) How can there be a step before I even meet someone? Well sit tight, because Paul Carrick Bronson, of Married at First Sight UK, will share his Top 4 Factors when it comes to meeting your match.
**A quick note: At the top of this interview, I mention that I want Paul to share his expertise to help women find their match, but I want to emphasize that the knowledge he is about to share is valuable to people of all genders and orientations. Enjoy!
PAUL CARRICK BRUNSON (2:20)
Paul is a matchmaker, television host, columnist, and host of the podcast, “Better with Paul” where he shares his journey in business, life, and love. He has also appeared as a consultant on Married at First Sight UK, Celebs Go Dating, and as a correspondent on Good Morning America.
(3:00) Factor #1: You just gotta believe.
Paul’s first factor in being able to find your perfect match is belief. Paul believes that what you believe you truly do conceive, which is why cultivating a mindset that is open and optimistic to finding love is so important, and will lead you to success. And in this case, success doesn’t have to mean finding a partner or getting married. Success can just mean that you start to enjoy dating.
Plus, Paul shares a crucial suggestion on how we can empower ourselves to reshape our own belief systems. (Hint: it may involve raising your standards.)
(8:28) Factor #2: Find a love mentor.
The second factor Paul shares is self love. Or, as he defines it, feeling like you could become your ultimate self. “You truly can’t love anyone more than your willingness to love yourself.”
Paul also touches on the difference between self esteem and self love. He says that you can have self esteem in one area of your life, such as your career or health, but this doesn’t necessarily equate to self love. “If any areas [of your life] are lacking and you don’t believe you can become your optimal self in any one of those areas, then you don’t unconditionally love yourself. Because unconditional self love is the aggregate of all of those areas.”
So what steps can we take to create more self love? Paul recommends identifying someone who can be your love mentor, who shares your values and lives their life in a way that inspires you. The second thing he recommends is evaluating each individual section of your life (family, career, health, spirituality, etc) and ask yourself, “do I feel like I’m on the pathway to becoming my best self in each of these categories?” If the answer is no in any category, then start to examine what is the roadblock preventing you from becoming your optimal self in that category.
(16:50) Factor #3: Physically attractive vs physical attraction.
Physical attraction may seem like a more superficial requirement in finding a partner. But Paul states that over his 15 years of consulting, the data very clearly shows that if there is not a minimal level of physical attraction early in the relationship (i.e. within the first two hours of meeting someone), chances are nothing else will matter.
Paul goes on to clarify the difference between physical attraction and being physically attractive. Being physically attractive is based on a lot of objective factors – facial symmetry, how much they remind us of our parents, the cadence of their voice, and scent (and we’re talking pheromones, not Old Spice). But having physical attraction to someone isn’t something we can decide on, it’s something that just is.
Plus, Paul gives Damona the two questions you should ask yourself to determine if you should go on a second date.
(22:40) Factor #4: Your values are the rulebook to your life.
Paul’s fourth and final factor for finding your perfect match is having shared values. (Sound familiar?) Paul sees our values as being the rulebook to our life. And if someone can’t live by the rules of your life or you theirs – meaning you have very few shared values – how are you going to fit into each other’s lives?
Additionally, Paul says that your values are never what you say they are. Your values are your actions. They can only be evaluated by how your actions are reflected back to you from the people in your life.
You can learn more about Paul by visiting his website paulcbrunson.com, AND you can follow him on Instagram @PaulCBrunson.
**There is no Dear Damona in this episode. We will continue answering your dating dilemmas during Season 10 of Dates & Mates, airing August 23.
Access Hollywood: Huma Abedin & Bradley Cooper
Damona joins Access Hollywood to talk about Hollywood’s newest couple – former White House staffer Huma Abedin and Bradley Cooper. Some people have been confused by this pairing, but Damona reminds us of another political-celebrity couple that people didn’t think would last.
Watch the clip below to find out who!
Couples Therapy & Texting Decoded
Here on Dates & Mates, we like to cover topics for every type of listener. Whether you’re single, wanting to move into a long term relationship, or someone who’s already found the one and wants to stay on track – we’re here to help.
That’s why all summer long, Damona is opening up the Dates & Mates vault to bring you incredible conversations from the early days of the podcast or other secret sessions that have been locked away for VIP clients only.
For today’s installment of our Summer Encore Series, we’re revealing an interview with Dr. Jenn Mann. You probably know her as the host and therapist for VH1’s long-standing hit shows Couples Therapy with Dr. Jenn and Family Therapy with Dr. Jenn. She will share her techniques for improving your relationship through communication and conflict management.
DATING DISH W/ DR. JENN MANN (2:00)
(2:00) What your boyfriend’s texts really mean.
Inspired by an Elite Daily article from 2019, Damona and Dr. Jenn get into the anxiety surrounding text frequency and what it really means if your partner doesn’t respond right away. Hint: Dr. Jenn believes that consistent communication is good, but it doesn’t have to be responding in five minutes.
D and Dr. J also discuss something called “status grounding” and how it can help take the pressure off of communicating with your partner.
(5:05) What makes people fall out of love?
Do y’all know the four biggest predictors of divorce? According to Dr. Jenn, the Gottman Institute nicknames these four factors “The Four Horsemen” – criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. Dr. Jenn goes into each of these factors, and clarifies the line between feedback and criticism
Hot tip: Anytime you can frame something as a request rather than a criticism, you’ll avoid any potential defensiveness and keep your path of communication open.
JENN MANN (10:14)
Dr. Jenn Mann can be infamously seen as the host and therapist for VH1’s long-standing hit shows Couples Therapy with Dr. Jenn and Family Therapy with Dr. Jenn.
She has appeared as a guest expert on hundreds of other shows including: The Today Show, The Early Show, Dr. Oz, Wendy Williams, The Doctors, and more! And she is the author of The Relationship Fix, which spent 5 weeks on the bestseller list.
(11:20) Conflict is an opportunity for growth.
Not only is conflict a significant opportunity for growth, it’s a chance to practice communicating in a healthy and effective way that will ultimately bring you and your partner closer. Dr. Jenn notes that one of the keys to taking advantage of this is to fight fairly (i.e. don’t raise your voice, no name calling or blaming).
Dr. Jenn also details the Four R’s for an effective apology – remorse, room, respect, & responsibility.
(14:53) Can couples rebuild after infidelity?
If you’ve been a long-time listener of the podcast, you know how many times Damona has gotten questions about infidelity. Particularly, is it possible to get past cheating? And are there things we can do to prevent a partner from cheating?
Much like the factors of an effective apology, Dr. Jenn says that remorse is key to building back trust after infidelity. The partner who cheated has to be able to recognize the ways in which they hurt the other partner, and voice that recognition.
If you have been cheated on and you choose to stay with your partner, remember that things are inevitably going to trigger you. Dr. Jenn encourages building enough trust and communication where you are able to openly voice your insecurities.
(19:45) How does your childhood trauma affect your attachment style?
Dr. Jenn brings us some new takes on attachment styles. As y’all probably know, the first three years of life are when we form our foundation for attachment. These years also inform our impression of the world as either being a safe or unsafe place (i.e. how much your needs were met as a kid).
In terms of adult attachment, Dr. Jenn says that we tend to anticipate whatever relationship dynamics we grew up with in our romantic ones. She adds that we will sometimes even pick partners that reinforce the stories we tell ourselves about how we were raised. Dr Jenn explains, “Our unconscious mind doesn’t know the difference between past, present and future. It’s always trying to heal old wounds and current time.”
Check out more of Dr. Jenn’s advice in her book, The Relationship Fix. And be sure to follow Dr. Jenn on IG, Twitter and Facebook @drjennmann.
DEAR DAMONA (24:50)
Submit your Dear Damona questions on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook and hear your answers in a future episode of the show!
NPR: Crushes & What to Do About Them
I never know what to do when I have a crush on someone. Should I let them know how I feel? Or ignore my feelings until they fade away? How am I supposed to pay my taxes when I get butterflies in my stomach every time my phone buzzes? Why do we even get crushes?
“We get crushes because they are hardwired into our biology,” says Damona Hoffman, a certified dating coach and host of The Dates & Mates Podcast. “We are designed to want to connect, to mate and relate, and that starts from a very young age.”
Not only that, Hoffman says, crushes can get stronger as we age, “because your needs are greater.”
Depending on the situation, acting on a crush can be a good, healthy step – or it can create a lot more trouble than it needs to. Hoffman walks us through how to deal with a crush in four common scenarios.
Check out the rest of the article here!
Date Lab: The Playlist Didn’t Match the Vibe
“After gaining a bit of liquid courage from a White Claw, Conner House, 29, walked over to San Lorenzo Italian restaurant on Ninth Street NW and looked around for his date, Diego Sanchez, 24. His first impression was that Diego looked cute. Conner also picked up on an accent and was intrigued. He complimented Diego’s classic white Reeboks, and they went off to take pictures.
Diego, who works in technology sales, admits he is not camera shy, so he was happy to take photos, even though it was awkward to pose with a stranger. At least in Diego’s description, this stranger was ‘well dressed,’ which he values in a match.”
How did the rest of the night go? Click here to find out!
Married at First Sight & Can Cheaters Change
Welcome to another episode in the Dates & Mates Summer Encore Series!
In case you missed it, we are opening up the vault on some of Damona’s favorite past episodes of Dates & Mates. These are conversations that were previously only available to VIPs and select clients… but they were just TOO HOT to stay hidden away this summer.
This is a particularly special episode as you’ll be hearing from the show’s former co-host Ray Christian, who offered a male perspective on dating for 2 amazing years of Dates & Mates, in addition to today’s guest.
Being in a long term relationship, we see our partners and ourselves grow and change, our needs and goals shift, and the dynamics of our bonds evolve. It’s a good thing! It’s part of the process, but it can be tricky. That’s why Dr. Pepper Schwartz is joining us today, the only expert to appear on all 15 seasons of Married at First Sight. She will be explaining the importance of the “relationship check-in”’ and outlining key topics to cover in that conversation.
PEPPER SCHWARTZ (1:45)
Dr. Pepper Schwartz is an esteemed researcher and author of over 25 books. Two of those books, American Couples and The Normal Bar: The Surprising Secrets of Happy Couples, have been on the NYT’s bestseller list and on a little show called Oprah.
She is currently teaching at the University of Washington in Seattle. And, she is AARP’s first Love & Relationship and Ambassador. And lastly, she is one of the stars of the hit TV series Married at First Sight.
(2:51) The importance of the “relationship check-in.”
What are the benchmarks that we should look for to know that our relationship is on the right track? And what things should we be doing to make sure we keep things in our relationship spicy (or “peppery” in this case)?
Dr. Pepper Schwartz weighs in, with a surprising stat about holding hands.
(9:00) Lubricants, moisturizers, and toys – oh my!
Damona asks Dr. Schwartz for advice on pain during sex. If you’re experiencing sharp pains during intimacy, then definitely hit up your doctor. But if what you’re feeling is a milder discomfort, Dr. Schwartz says this is nothing a little lubricant or moisturizer can’t fix. Plus, she shares the crucial difference between lube and moisturizer.
As for the guys, Dr. Schwartz shares some words of wisdom for how to work with sex toys in the bedroom (hint: a toy isn’t your competition, it’s your colleague).
(12:30) Intimacy in your 20s vs 30’s.
Dr. Schwartz has learned a lot about couples through her 15 years on Married At First Sight, some of it good and some cautionary. The good? That you can never assume how mature someone is by how old they are. And the cautionary? Dr. Schwartz notes the times she’s been shocked at the kinds of things people will say to each other when in conflict.
(16:14) Can sexual chemistry be built?
Damona’s co-host Ray asks a question for the ages – is there really no hope for someone if y’all don’t vibe in the bedroom? Dr. Schwartz says that building sexual chemistry with someone can be difficult, but not impossible.
For some people, having a restricted sexual vocabulary (i.e. how we think intimacy is supposed to happen, what we’re open to, our sexual triggers) can keep you from being able to adjust to your partners. But stay open to how that person makes you feel emotionally, and it just might enhance your chemistry in the bedroom.
You can find more hot takes from Dr. Pepper Schwartz at her website https://pepperschwartz.com/ and on Lifetime’s Married At First Sight.
DEAR DAMONA (19:10)
Submit your Dear Damona questions on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook and hear your answers in a future episode of the show!
Master Class: First Dates
If you’ve been a long-time listener of Dates & Mates, then ya’ll know how many topics Damona has covered over the past 400 episodes. But if you only see 100 episodes available right now, you’re not having a heat stroke. The remaining episodes have been locked away for VIPs and clients only… until today.
For the next month and a half, we’ll be reaching into the vault and shelling out the very best for you, in our Summer Encore Series! You’ll be hearing a mix of mini master classes and interviews that are making their comeback on Dates & Mates.
As for today’s episode… Getting through the matching process and screening process seems tough, but a lot of people worry most about the preparation process. So we’re kicking this series off with a masterclass on first dates.
Keep in mind that Covid is still a thing, so please take that into consideration when listening to this episode’s suggestions.
P.S. If you need more insights on dating safely in pandemic times, you can refer back to Damona’s recent Dating Health Update with Dr. James after listening to this episode.
FIRST DATES MASTERCLASS (2:46)
In this masterclass, Damona will cover topics like:
Submit your Dear Damona questions on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook and hear your answers in a future episode of the show!
DAMONA’S DEALS
Love on the Spectrum & Singles Parties
While we are each unique in our biology and our upbringing, there is typically one thing we all seek, one of our basic needs… love. The thing is, there is no “general education” when it comes to dating and relationships. Sure, most of us get the sex talk. But what about the empathy or communication talk?
That’s why we’ve got Jennifer Cook, the expert of Damona’s favorite Netflix show, “Love on the Spectrum,” joining us today. She will be shedding light on the not-so-obvious social rules of dating. She’ll also be sharing what it’s like dating with autism or dating someone who is on the spectrum.
DATING DISH (1:36)
The rise of singles parties – is this the new way to find love?:
According to Yahoo News, there is a major vibe shift happening in favor of singles parties. New research from the global dating app Inner Circle shows that pre-lockdown, three quarters of singles wanted to meet people in real life. But that definitely didn’t include singles parties, since 4/10 refused to attend one. But now, 87% of singles think it’s more socially acceptable to meet someone at a singles party than it was before the pandemic.
Of the singles that Inner Circle surveyed, people have become more open to the idea of singles parties either because it’s a fun night out, because they know everyone there is looking for a match, or because they believe it’s the closest thing to meeting someone “in real life.” And not only are the attitudes towards these parties changing, the parties themselves have been leveling up – think outrageous quiz nights, burlesque shows, museum tours, night cycling, and more.
So here are the article’s tips on how to set yourself up for singles-party success, plus Damona’s personal take:
If you want more dating help from me, my Free Profile Starter Kit will help you refresh your dating profile and get on your way to more dates. It’s not going to be free forever, so download yours HERE!
JENNIFER COOK (9:22)
Jennifer Cook is an autism advocate, speaker, author and the on-camera Autism Expert in Netflix’s internationally-celebrated series, “Love on the Spectrum – US.”
She is the author of 9 bestselling books including Autism in Heels and the creator of Belong, where people can gain community and learn more of Jennifer’s expertise. Her personal story has been featured in The New York Post, The Guardian, BBC World Service, NPR.
(10:02) The rules you should just know:
As dating coaches, both Jennifer and Damona know the ways in which we can all feel bewildered by dating etiquette and the rules it seems we should all just know. From this expectation, we tend to make a ton of assumptions about the rules that we commit to and operate from. Being a dating specialist for individuals on the spectrum, Jennifer knows that this challenge is one that lies on a human spectrum. “One of the things I’ll say frequently is that nothing that I teach, nothing that I suggest, nothing that I talk about, is exclusive to people who are on the autism spectrum. Because life with autism is just life with the volume turned up in some ways, but it’s just life.”
Jennifer continues that “that which is intuited by neurotypical people isn’t often by neurodivergent people. And so there has to be a lot more intellectualizing, a lot more explicit teaching, that goes into just ordinary social situations.”
(13:01) A mid-life diagnosis:
Part of what is unique about Jennifer’s career in helping people navigate living with autism, is that Jennifer herself didn’t receive a diagnosis until much later in life… at 35 years old, to be exact. “You know, I was really just told my whole life that I was too smart for my own good, which doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense to me. Some people with autism struggle very much with language… I mean, I make my living with words writing and speaking. So when that’s your area of savant then it’s often unrecognized, especially among girls and women.”
After being told that she is on the spectrum, Jennifer was able to recognize all the instances in her childhood and young adulthood in which the diagnosis totally made sense (like always feeling more comfortable around adults and always wanting to be teacher’s pet).
Jennifer had kind of remained a social dud, up until one fateful school musical. Her high school drama department was doing a production of the musical Damn Yankees, and Jennifer had been cast as the fiery Gwen Verdon role, Lola. At one point, Lola has a big number titled “Whatever Lola Wants, Lola Gets” complete with a full-on strip-tease. “Well, at 15, I was doing a striptease on stage for three nights in a row. And that will change your social life overnight… Then I was really thrust into a situation where suddenly I was ‘socially successful.’ But I was having to mimic and copy.”
Jennifer’s newfound popularity and mastery of mimicking social cues literally got her the nickname Flirt. But she warns that being really good at copying social cues can get you into a lot of trouble if you don’t understand the intentions behind them. “If you’re not really sure what signals you’re sending out… you learn to be so good at something that you don’t understand the power of, and flirting is powerful stuff… And so, you know, it’s, it’s something that I’ve learned to teach with a whole lot of care.”
(16:55) A conversation is a game of catch:
In one coaching session on Love on the Spectrum US, Jennifer was teaching charming and princess-obsessed Abby the social cues for having a conversation. Plain and simple. In this exercise, Jennifer decided to use ping pong balls as a physical representation of how a conversation should feel, rolling the balls back and forth with ease and equal participation. Jennifer also used the balls to show Abby what it’s like to only ask questions or only be the receiver of questions, rolling multiple balls her way without a moment to recuperate.
“A lot of times I say, for folks on the spectrum, that our minds will be interchangeable from moment to moment, like fireflies. And in that case, Abby was very much in firefly mode… I knew that if she was going to be able to find a way to have any kind of conversation with anybody that wasn’t just one liners and like you said, like an interview, right? Then we were gonna have to ground her thinking in something concrete.”
Jennifer wants her clients to become comfortable with flexible communication – in her words, it’s like being either cooked spaghetti or uncooked spaghetti. Rigid thinking is like being uncooked spaghetti, but with a little warmth and time, you can get all flexible and then your thinking softens. Damona adds, “I hope for anyone listening, they really feel empowered that you don’t have to be like a victim in a conversation… you always have the ability to shift the topic or move with the conversation.” And that is flexible communication, my friends!
(24:08) Neurodivergent vs. neurotypical:
You may not know this, but Damona herself has a neurodiverse child! Specifically, with sensory processing disorder. Damona explains, “I’m still learning about what that means and how we make modifications. But sometimes the environment that [these people] find themselves in can impact their behavior. So if it’s too loud in a room, or if they’re wearing clothes that feel uncomfortable, they can’t really be themselves.”
Jennifer further defines “neurodivergent” as disorders like ADD, ADHD, nonverbal learning disorder, and more. Aka, all the D’s. And if you don’t fall under this umbrella of disorders (or differences, as Jennifer prefers), then you are most likely neurotypical.
Although sensory processing disorder is its own thing, Jennifer notes that sensory experiences are at the core of every human being’s basic experience. “If what our senses are telling us isn’t good, then nothing else – no higher order thinking experiences, no rational thinking, no logical thinking, no cooperative thinking, no learning, no emotional balance – can happen when your sensory systems are offline.”
Weirdly enough, you can calm your dating nerves in the same way you calm down sensory overload! Jennifer suggests drinking a very thick drink (like a milkshake or a smoothie) through a straw, because the sucking motion helps to stall your senses. Another one you may have heard of is chewing multiple pieces of gum or gum with a really strong flavor. This chewing motion then sends a signal to your brain which is read as a massage sensation, so your brain tells your body that it’s okay to calm down.
(28:51) Tone markers:
Damona asks for Jennifer’s thoughts on text conversations – with both tone and facial cues being absent from texting, does Jennifer have any advice on communicating better in the digital space?
Jennifer immediately brings up something called tone markers. These are basically abbreviations that can be sent along with your text to indicate your intentions. For instance, SRS tells the recipient that you’re being serious. Here is a larger list of tone markers and some info on why they’re important.
Additionally, Jennifer remarks that mind blindness is another obstacle in allowing people on the spectrum to understand social cues. “[Mind blindness is] an inability to naturally take somebody else’s perspective, right? We don’t naturally step into someone else’s shoes. That’s why a lot of times, especially for younger people [or those who] haven’t learned really good social skills growing up, why it can seem that somebody is not caring and not empathetic, which is like the biggest complete lie about people on the spectrum. We can be among the most caring, compassionate people you’re ever going to meet, to the point of emotional pain. But we have to be taught from situation to situation.”
(35:56) The most interesting thing you can be is interested:
So are there any other good communication practices that can keep us from making misguided assumptions (like around texting)? Neurodivergent or not, Jennifer believes one of the best things you can do in dating is to just be clear and honest. “If we are putting ourselves out there and somebody else is putting themselves out there, be present. Have the kindness and the decency really to be forthright about how you’re feeling.”
One communication technique that Jennifer often uses (and teaches in Love on the Spectrum) is to use the phrase “tell me more.” As mentioned in this episode’s Dating Dish, having your conversation icebreakers on hand is always a good idea and will save you in moments of panic. But if you feel like you’ve hit another roadblock in a conversation, you can always ask the other person to tell you more about something they’ve mentioned – what they do for work, how they got into their favorite hobby, and etc. Jennifer adds that “you don’t have to be feeding all the information. You can just be listening more. The most interesting thing you can be is interested.”
Be sure to check out “Love on the Spectrum – US” on Netflix. It is sincerely the feel-good show of the year.
And follow Jennifer on Instagram @jennifercook_author and check out her website www.jenniferotooleauthor.com.
DEAR DAMONA (40:43)
Submit your questions on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook and hear our answers live on the show! Here’s what our listeners asked about this week:
(TW: Relationship abuse)
**If you or someone you know is facing a domestic violence situation, or if you’ve seen any of the signs that Damona talked about on the show, please call the domestic violence hotline at 1-800-799-7233 (1-800-799-SAFE). You can also text START to 88788.
DAMONA’S DEALS
Love In The Jungle & Dating Incognito
The great animal debate continues. The online dating stats say that men who have cats in their profiles get fewer messages, but men who have dogs get more. Then there are the people who say men ARE dogs. But I wouldn’t insult dogs like that… heyooo! Just poking fun, we love men and dogs. But most of all, we love looking at what humans and animals can learn from one another.
If you and me ain’t nothin but mammals, is there anything we could learn about love from looking at other animals?
That is precisely the question at the core of the new Discovery+ series, Love in the Jungle. Today Animal behavior specialist and show consultant, Dr. Jennifer Verdolin, will school us on love lessons from the animal kingdom. She’ll tell us why we should trade romantic images of swans for vultures, the real reason that red works in your dating profiles, and so much more.
DATING DISH (2:42)
What to do if a “nice-guy” turns out to be not so nice:
If you think you know what a nice guy is, Reddit has got another thing coming for ya. According to this Newsweek article and Reddit forums, “nice guy” is now a phrase referring to a man who believes acting nice or moral entitles him to sex, romance and affection. This is not a new phenomenon, especially because the article notes how the anonymity of social media allows feelings of rage to come to the surface and be expressed more easily.
You may actually recognize the usual pattern of a Nice Guy, which is as follows: When you first start talking, they’re perfectly nice and give you lots of compliments. Soon after, they make an advance. If or when you decline, they immediately turn on you. They begin name calling, acting dismissive, and saying things like “I didn’t think that you were pretty anyway.”
So here are the clear traits you can look out for in a potential “nice guy.”
If you end up finding a “nice guy” out in the wild, what should you do? According to this article, they are probably not in the position to really think about their behavior reasonably, so stay polite as you exit. If you become rude with them, they’ll see that they’ve gained emotional control over you, and it may just make them even worse. Also, don’t try to educate them. And most importantly, don’t be afraid to block and report this person for abusive behavior. Damona notes that all dating and social media apps take online abuse very seriously, particularly if people are violating the terms of the app. So don’t be afraid to let the app know that we don’t accept “nice guy” behavior.
Damona takes a moment to talk to the ACTUAL nice guys, and talk about a strategy she developed called the Nice Guy Nine. Since the nice guy is often overlooked (and because she ended up marrying her own nice guy), Damona ended up creating techniques to help these men attract the women they want.
Below are some of the tips from the Nice Guy Nine.
Are you an actual nice guy who needs a little help getting any matches? Damona’s FREE Profile Starter Kit will help you completely revolutionize your online dating experience, switch up your profile, and magnetize the dates to you. It’s not going to be free forever, so download yours HERE!
JENNIFER VERDOLIN (13:15)
Dr. Jennifer Verdolin is an internationally known animal behavior scientist, podcast host, and author of “Wild Connection: What animal courtship and mating tells us about human relationships”.
She is also an Associate Professor in the School of Natural Resources and the Environment at the University of Arizona
(14:01) Dr. Verdolin’s background:
How does one find a career at the intersection of animal behavioralist and dating show consultant? Dr. Verdolin states that she’s always been able to see the parallels between humans and other species (whether it be a dragonfly or a cardinal). “I study wild animals and all the things that go into their social lives and their love lives… And then there was my own dating life. And I found myself, after I got my PhD and I was single again, going, ‘Okay, why is it that a chicken can make a better choice in a partner than I can?’” So Dr. Verdolin set out on a mission to date like other species, using some of their principles to guide her to a mate, rather than being guided by romantic comedies.
(16:20) Love in the Jungle:
Damona calls Dr. Verdolin’s new Discovery+ show, Love in the Jungle, a mix between Survivor, F**kboy Island and Married at First Sight. Basically, 14 unlucky-in-love singles are thrown into the jungle to mix & mingle and compete in challenges reminiscent of different mating rituals – all while being unable to speak. “We use words so much. We manipulate each other with words and we present an image to each other with our words. And sometimes, you know, we don’t pay attention to other things, because we’re so caught up in the wonderful words. So by taking that away, you’re left with observing how somebody interacts with others. You are left with noticing their body language, you’re left with how creative they can be with what they’re trying to communicate to you. They have to find other ways to show you.”
Dr. Verdolin describes that one of the things that surprised her the most while filming was how much the contestants embraced the philosophy of the show. She addresses one of the challenges on the show, where the women had to cover themselves with pink feathers and dance like a flamingo. “You know, you’re doing [these challenges] in front of potential mates, which is not something we typically have to do. We always make ourselves very comfortable, we dress the way we feel the best, we go places that we feel comfortable with, to activities that we’re confident in. And it’s really unsettling to be vulnerable in that way, super vulnerable.”
(20:08) Define ‘high-quality’:
A time-old concept that has pervaded both our culture and the animal kingdom, is the idea of the Alpha Male. Damona inquires if the Alpha Male mentality is one that we should be looking for or even need anymore?
Take the aforementioned bird, the Cardinal. If you are a male Cardinal, you are judged by female Cardinals on how red you are (and unfortunately, there isn’t a red spray tan salon for cardinals). “But here’s the thing, why do female Cardinals care so much about how red the males are? Well, because they become red through their diet. And so that red is a signal of, ‘I’m a good male. I can find food, I’m going to be a good father, I can provide while you are in the nest.’”
This is what Dr. Verdolin refers to as an honest signal, referring to a visual trait that is hard to cheat. And those honest signals don’t have to be about strength or size. They can be intelligence, they can be sociability, they can be all kinds of traits.
Honest signals work into the the Alpha male/female dynamic, in that they inspire competition. “What we see in humans and other species is intense male-male competition, intense female-female competition, right? Or however you want to mix it up, it doesn’t really matter. There’s always going to be competition for high quality mates, depending on whatever we decide is high quality.”
(20:48) Seeing red:
One of Damona’s classic pieces of advice (that you may have caught on the show before) is to include the color red in your dating profile pictures, since it inspires such a strong biological and emotional connection.
Dr. Verdolin brings up the power of red in an example involving Zebra Finch. For a long time, people who studied birds put different colored bands on their legs to be able to tell them apart. Turns out in this instance, males that got red bands were apparently seen as super sexy to the females. (Female Zebra finches tend to love novel traits). So for some reason, the males that got green bands lost fights with males that had red bands, and females didn’t like them as much.
“We are attuned to different factors, and the thing that I like to bring people’s attention to… is to notice this, pay attention to this. Because you might be drawn to somebody based on that [unique or specific quality]. But that doesn’t make that individual the right partner for you.”
(26:36) Love at first smell:
Let’s talk about the pheromone in the room… how much does smell really play into human attraction, according to Dr. Verdolin? Plainly, she says a huge amount. “I think that we do a disservice to each other by covering our smell… There was actually an experiment done, I don’t remember where it was. But it was basically a speed dating experiment using armpit swabs. You basically went around sniffing jars, and you wrote down what jar or jars you were strongly attracted to. And then if there was a match, you got time with that individual.”
Mate-wise, we get a lot of the information about potential partners from smell. Particularly through something called MHC genes, or major histocompatibility genes, which are our immune function genes. Dr. Verdolin adds, “We are most attracted to individuals that are opposite to us. And why would we be most interested in individuals that have sort of an opposite set of genes? Well, you combine two different sets of immune genes, and you have babies that really have the best of both of their parents when it comes to immune genes.” (AKA, genetic diversity.)
Dr. Verdolin also drops the fact that when women are on birth control, the medication changes their smell preferences. They tend to end up feeling attracted to individuals that are MOST similar to their MHC genes, which can sometimes become a problem when they get off birth control, because they may not be able to stand the smell of their partner.
But with all these natural pheromones floating around, does using scented deodorant or perfume mess up our scent-ses? (See what I did there?) Dr. Versolin thinks so. “Of course, one should have good hygiene. We’re not talking about not bathing for a week so that you’re ripe by the time you go on your date. That’s not what we’re talking about… I feel like there was this push to have us be embarrassed about our smells. And you know, I say bring it back! But again, this is just a piece of information on your genetic compatibility, your sexual compatibility, your kind of attraction compatibility. And that can be great for one night or for, you know, 50 years.”
(34:19) Monogamy or nah:
Similarly to other species, Dr. Verdolin states that we can also be attracted to multiple people at once. Which begs the biological question, are we meant to be monogamous? Dr. Verdolin has seen that in any species, there is variation among the individuals (for example, there are currently over 50 human societies where women have two husbands).
Dr. Verdolin brings up the Bewick’s Swan. “You have some infidelity in some partners, right? So some partners are super faithful, and other partners are not so much. And even like one-sixth, or one-third of the little cygnets, which is what baby swans are called, are not related to the male. It’s the females that usually step out! And so we call that socially monogamous, but not genetically monogamous.” (Hot tip: this Valentine’s Day, try giving your partner a card with Black Vultures on it, who Dr. V says are SUPER monogamous.)
And then there’s the Prairie Dogs, where females mate with on average two plus males. “I study prairie dogs and, you know, I’d see them traipsing all over the place. And I’m like, oh, it was thought it was the males that were doing all of the philandering. And it turned out it was the females that were going out and visiting other males.”
We tend to have these stories about what our relationships are supposed to look like, and that they’re supposed to look that way for everybody. But we’ve changed so much culturally in the past decade and at a really rapid pace. And some people just aren’t as monogamous as other people. Dr. Verdolin’s hot take is that “the problem comes in when we don’t have a society that permits people to say, ‘You know what, I struggle with monogamy.”
(43:53) Tap into your animal intuition:
Intuition plays such a big role in how we suss out people in our own dating lives, so Damona asks Dr. V how intuition shows up for different species. Like, do they have a special spidey sense (maybe literally) for picking up red flags?
Dr. Verdolin returns back to the Cardinal to answer D’s question. “Remember when we started out with the cardinal, right? There’s no female that’s like, ‘Okay, I mean, he has potential to be better. I think if I just work with him, and I show him where the berries are, you know, he’ll become more motivated. He will be more of an ambitious Cardinal.’ We know in our gut, when we have that feeling, we know what feels good and we know what feels bad.”
“But we also have sort of been told that relationships are hard work, right? That everything is hard. And we also have storylines that tell us we will get this wonderful feeling when we first meet somebody, but then they don’t treat us as well as they should. And then we go through all this pain, we break up and then they come back and they’ve had an epiphany about us and they’ve come back to be with us.”
Unlike other species, Dr. V believes that all of this mixed messaging has messed with the way we listen to our intuition… For most species, not listening to their intuition will always have more immediate consequences than when humans ignore their intuition. So let’s take a lesson from Dr. V and the Cardinals and trust our gut more. Because in the end, we lose less time on situations that aren’t right for us, and we will therefore be able to stay positive.
Be sure to follow Dr. Jen on Instagram and Twitter @RealDrJen.
And check out her website for links to her podcast, Wild Connection, and her book, “Wild Connection: What Animal Courtship and Mating Tells Us about Human Relationships.” Check out JenniferVerdolin.com.
DEAR DAMONA (54:06)
Submit your questions on Instagram, Twitter, or Facebook and hear our answers live on the show! Here’s what our listeners asked about this week:
DAMONA’S DEALS
Access Daily: The Love Shack
Damona is BACK with the Access Daily crew, bringing you a whole new segment… The Love Shack! Damona sets up at Universal Studios Hollywood to answer the dating dilemmas of park-goers.
She’ll be answering questions like:
Hear what Damona has to say below…
The Daily Show Podcast: Sexual Racism
On this episode of the Beyond the Scenes Podcast, Damona joins Roy Wood Jr. and Ronny Chieng for a discussion on “How Sexual Racism Affects Online Dating.”
This podcast episode revisits a 2016 segment done on The Daily Show, exploring the ways in which sexual racism shows up on dating apps.
Listen to the full conversation below!
The Angry Therapist & Attachment Theory Redo
We’ve all had THOSE relationships. The ones that make you wonder why you keep finding yourself dealing with the same drama again and again. The ones that make you wonder if all relationships are this difficult. The ones that make you say “It’s not me, it’s you.”
If you’re ready to break the cycle of bad relationships, psychologists John Kim (who you may know as The Angry Therapist) and his partner Vanessa Bennett are here to talk about their forthcoming book, It’s Not Me, It’s You. Damona and the guests dive deep into breaking bad relationship cycles, plus Vanessa will share her special sauce for manifesting the relationship you want.
DATING DISH (1:33)
Has attachment theory gone too far?:
Damona would say yes. This recent article from Refinery29 covered the rise of attachment theory, and how we may have become too attached to the theory ourselves. If you’re not completely clear on what attachment theory is, we’re here to give you a little history lesson. Attachment theory was actually developed in 1958 by a British psychologist named John Bowlby. He was interested in how a child’s relationship with their mother (i.e. what he called the primary caregiver) shapes their subsequent approach to the world. If a mother was what he called “affectionless” and not able to fulfill the feminine maternal ideals of emotional support, her child would be “damaged” and experience long term cognitive, social, and emotional difficulties.
There are three main attachment styles central to this theory: secure attachment, anxious attachment, and avoidant attachment. Secure attachment refers to those that feel comfortable with intimacy, and are usually warm and loving. Anxious attachment includes people who crave intimacy, are often preoccupied with their relationships, and tend to worry about their partner’s ability to love them back (aka kinda clingy). Lastly, those who feel avoidant attachment equate intimacy with a loss of independence and constantly try to minimize closeness. And there have been many offshoots of attachment since then (anxious-preoccupied, avoidant-dismissive, disorganized, fearful avoidant, etc).
But this new wave of attachment theory rose to popularity in 2010 when a book was released called Attached: Are you Anxious, Avoidant, or Secure? How the science of adult attachment can help you find – and keep – love, written by Dr. Amir Levine (who Damona has actually studied with) and Rachel Heller. Additionally, attachment theory has slowly seeped its way into self-help culture, with users consistently making TikToks and Instagram posts all about how to identify certain attachment styles in one’s self and in other people. And although Damona respects all the work that has been done on attachment theory and appreciates the tool, she believes that it can be a gross oversimplification of how we bond with others. With so much info circulating on attachment theory, we’ve become so quick to want to label and diagnose people that it prevents us from experiencing the nuance of others. Or on the other end of the spectrum, we see posts about certain attachment styles that we relate to and then deeply internalize it as part of our identity instead of finding ways to continue to grow.
There are many problems with attachment theory, one being that the original study puts way too much emphasis on the mother for influencing how you attach. The study also insinuates that your childhood experiences are permanently imprinted and unchangeable, which is not true. Bottom line – Damona requests that we don’t self-diagnose. “I know that our nature is to lean into self diagnosis. But I really don’t want to do that to people, because I believe these are tools to inform you, so that you can use this information to change what you don’t want in your life… And the danger in searching for a label for yourself or for the people that you are dating, is that that label can actually excuse behavior that needs to change. It can prevent you from going deeper and seeing these conflicts as an opportunity to lean in, to learn more, and to choose differently… Every experience that you have changes you, informs you, evolves you. And I think it’s really time that we just pump the brakes a little bit on the attachment theory.”
JOHN KIM & VANESSA BENNETT (10:03)
John Kim (aka The Angry Therapist) and Vanessa Bennett are licensed therapists, authors, and podcast hosts.
You might have heard John on this podcast before talking about his bestselling book I Used To Be A Miserable F*ck. Since then John has also written the bestseller Single on Purpose, and he dishes out advice on his podcast and social media under the title The Angry Therapist
Vanessa is a Licensed Holistic Psychotherapist, Codependency Expert, and cohost of the podcast Cheaper Than Therapy.
You can read all about their story in their new relationship book It’s Not Me, It’s You (which is available for pre-order now). But today, you will hear the highlights of all their baggage, imperfections, and relationship challenges.
(12:16) How you came together:
Damona asks John and Vanessa to share their relationship origin story. John starts: “Our relationship in the beginning was kind of bumpy. It started with a friend that I worked out with coming up to me and asking me if I liked white girls, and I said, ‘yeah I like all types of women.’ And then he said, ‘Well, I have a therapist for you.’ And I was like, ‘I don’t just date therapists.’”
Vanessa adds her perspective. “I had been following John for a while [on Instagram] but not really engaging… And then randomly, one day, I saw something he posted. And for whatever reason, It kind of piqued my interest. I did a little internet stalking and told my friend at the time, ‘I’m gonna date this guy.’ We [John and Vanessa] had a mutual friend… And so I had this plan to have my friend hook us up. So I went to the friend’s place and randomly out of nowhere, the friend goes, ‘I have this friend that I feel like you’d really get along with.’ And so it kind of felt a little Kismet at that point.”
Vanessa confirms that their relationship was rocky in the beginning, mostly because John was trying to live his single life at the time. John shares, “Damona, I was trying to be single. I wanted my next one to be the one you know, and so I wasn’t done trying to make up for everything that I didn’t do in my 20s. I was in a relationship at that time, so… I never had a one night stand. I never did drugs with someone. I never woke up with someone I didn’t like. I wanted to have all those crazy stories, experiences.”
Vanessa also believes that there was some manifestation at play. “So usually when people say how did you guys meet, my very straightforward answer is I manifested him… I had recently, within the past six months before meeting him, had my heart broken in like a very short but very intense relationship. I had gotten out of a six year engagement and moved across the country by myself… I was in grad school to become a therapist at the time. And I just remember thinking, I am so ready to meet somebody who can speak that language and meet me on that level. Like, I don’t want to mother the men I meet anymore. You know, I want them to meet me there. And I just kept talking about it.”
(18:00) Do you date white girls?:
Damona pulls the conversation back to John’s friend’s question – “do you date white girls” – and inquires if they had to unpack anything while being in a interracial relationship. Vanessa brings up her short but intense relationship before meeting John. “So this relationship I had been in was a Latino man… He kind of out of the blue said, ‘I need to marry a Latina.’ And I remember just being floored and devastated… The reason why [John’s] friend did ask him that is because I said to him, half jokingly, ‘does he date white girls?’”
In their upcoming book, It’s Not Me, It’s You, John also details his experience coming from a very traditional Korean family. “They wanted me to marry, of course, a Korean woman and have Korean babies and all that. But my first girlfriend that I brought around when I was 21 was Caucasian. And then the person I married was Caucasian… I grew up in a very kind of white world in the 80s. And so, you know, when we’re going through our wonder years, the posters on our wall are how we kind of trace who’s around us. And so, for some reason, I didn’t have a lot of Asian friends growing up.”
Weirdly enough, Vanessa goes on to say that the biggest cultural difference between them are their coastal origins (Vanessa is from New York and John is from LA).
(22:00) Feeling chosen:
In another section of their book, John goes into having had a pattern of getting close to his matches and pulling away – even while dating Vanessa. So how did John start to unravel and change that pattern? “I think it’s different for everyone. But generally, we don’t change unless we have to, right? Usually it’s many broken hearts, losing something, whether it’s your love, custody, job. There are things that we lose where we wake up, and we’re like, ‘Okay, we have to look at ourself.’ And so I think for me, it was her having some honest conversations with me. She actually tried to leave once or twice. But I think because of my ambivalence or not looking at my patterns, [realizing] that the House of Cards can collapse, was a cold shower for me.”
(TW: Misscarriage)
John shares that a defining moment for his and Vanessa’s relationship, which bonded them more than anything, was when they lost their first baby. “There was a moment when we were in the hospital, and we found that the baby didn’t make it. There was this weird, deep connection I felt because we were a family for a minute, you know? And so the loss of a baby, for some reason, ignited something in me to really work on this.” It was at this moment that Vanessa found the need to create a boundary – she voiced that she needed to take a pause and breathe, before being able to come back to the relationship and restart the commitment conversation. Vanessa states, “I’m not for or against breaks. What I am for is standing in your truth and not chasing, not begging, and not expecting somebody else to make you feel chosen. And so I think I had a real dose of reality… I just hit this point where I felt like I had spent my lifetime hoping others would choose me. And in that moment, I had this really clear sense of like, I choose me. And he’s wonderful, and he’s great, and all the things on paper. But like, I don’t deserve to feel unchosen in my relationship.”
(End of TW)
(26:44) The definition of love:
Of all the chapter titles in John and Vanessa’s book, “Happily Ever After is Bullshit” is probably the best one. Damona hops on this thought, agreeing that the fairy tales and stories that make us think we should be searching for a soulmate, for “the one,” actually keep us stuck. Because we then end up constantly in pursuit of an idea. John adds that this very idea is the thing that kept him in his patterns. “It’s actually the exact thing that kept me ambivalent, what you’re talking about. That there’s only one person for you on this planet and putting all your chips on that… It’s not even about ‘the one’ – it’s about the one in front of you. And to look at the differences.”
Damona then hits John and Vanessa with a huge question – what is the definition of love? John begins hesitantly, “Oh, man, that’s a great question. I think one that love is a choice, right? Yes, love produces a feeling. But it is a daily choice. We were listening to you and Dr. Drew last night, going through your podcast. Dr. Drew talked about how long term relationships can be like recovery in that it’s just one day at a time. And so kind of bringing it back to the here and now… Also, I think that love is about the journey of what comes up and processing that. That’s what puts two people on a path of growth.”
Vanessa’s take on the question? “Carl Jung would say that every one of us, from a soul perspective, our desire is to individuate. Our desire is to grow, our desire is to expand and to elevate. And in that sense, all relationships are unconsciously drawn into our sphere in order to help us with that, right? They help us by challenging us by putting up a mirror, by showing us our blind spots, by showing us our areas for growth. So the way I look at relationships now is like, it shouldn’t just be easy-peasy sex and butterflies and rainbows all the time…. I want the challenge. I want the growth. I want the mirror that makes me uncomfortable, and makes me have to say, all right, like, this is my opportunity to heed the call and do a little self exploration and growth.”
(31:06) An opportunity to practice courage:
A big part of any relationship is the conflict – how to navigate through it, and then how to use those moments as a mirror for reflection (like Vanessa mentions above). Vanessa says that most of us aren’t actually taught how to have conflict in a healthy way, particularly if our families didn’t provide a good model for us. “A lot of us didn’t learn to sit across from each other respectfully, and have compassion and validate the other person’s feelings. Or depersonalize what they’re talking about, so that you’re not in such defense mode that you can’t see the person sitting across from you. You know, and it’s not easy. I don’t want to say that to be like, *womp womp* to the people that are listening. But it takes work and a lot of work and a lot of commitment for yourself to really say, ‘Where can I get better at not taking things personally and not get defensive?’ Because really bottom line, the way that relationships grow deeper is through that rupture/repair, rupture/repair, rupture/repair… And if there’s no rupture, it’s actually really hard to create that repair. That’s where the depth comes from.”
John believes that encountering conflict is actually a perfect opportunity to practice courage. “So every time there’s conflict, there’s an opportunity for you to be courageous. And by courageous, I don’t mean kicking doors down. I mean looking inward, doing things that are uncomfortable. Being vulnerable, being curious instead of judgmental.”
So let’s say you’ve had a conflict, you’ve disagreed and voiced your opinion, and now you’re ready to repair. How do we go about giving an effective apology? “Many people talk around that. And then they don’t actually say I’m sorry, and really mean it,” John starts. “So I think it starts with that. And then I think there’s a responsibility to an apology. Meaning, what are you going to do about it, what’s the ownership?” Vanessa shares, “I don’t know if it’s a cultural thing or what, but I think we have this misconception that if we validate somebody’s feelings that we agree with them. And they don’t have to go hand in hand. And I think for a lot of us, it’s such an ego based thing. We feel like by saying we’re sorry, we’re somehow losing a part of ourselves, we’re somehow acknowledging something that we don’t want to acknowledge or agree with. And that’s not the case. They’re separate.”
Check out John and Vanessa’s book It’s Not You, It’s Me. Pre-order your copy HERE, and you can submit your receipt to join their book club – they’ll be dissecting the chapters of their book every Monday at 1p PST.
And be sure to follow John @theangrytherapist and Vanessa @vanessasbennett on insta.
DEAR DAMONA (40:55)
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DAMONA’S DEALS